At work, I’ve got a lot of time on my hands. That’s not to say that I’m not busy. I should say I’ve got a lot of “thinking time” on my hands. Recently, as my mind’s been wandering, I’d been pondering… perseverating, maybe, on standards of proof.
What is your standard of proof? This could apply to anything. What is your standard of proof for accepting any particular proposition? Do you have a high standard of proof? Low? Any standard? Does it depend on the proposition?
I suppose the reason I pose this question is because I get frustrated when people use false logic in order to add steam to nonsensical beliefs. They may not even realize they are doing it. I think my pet peeve, as far as logical fallacies are concerned, is the post hoc ergo propter hoc argument. Basically, it’s when an event (A) occurs, followed by another event (B), and it is assumed that A is the cause of B. There are examples of these types of fallacies if you follow the link. They are excellent examples, but there’s one in particular that really gets my goat…
Let’s just say, for example, someone gets injured. Hypothetically speaking, that is. Let us also suppose that, again hypothetically, this person visits the doctor and the news is given that surgery is not required. The injury should heal on its own.
Now let’s suppose, again hypothetically, that a separate party, upon hearing this news, says, “I was praying for you.” Suppose this other party claims that surgery was not required because of the prayers they had previously offered up to God. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. After it, therefore, because of it. Because B happened after A, it is assumed that A was caused by B. It is automatically assumed that the prayers were the reason for not needing surgery.
It makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever. If you were to follow this line of logic consistently, you could arbitrarily apply random causes to anything, and it would make just as much sense.
This thermometer goes up to 100 degrees Celsius, therefore water will boil at 100 degrees Celsius. Why does the light turn on when I flip the switch? Oh, because the sun went down first. And for a final example, why hasn’t God ever healed an amputee? Because, since the beginning of the Earth, the sun has always risen in the East and set in the West.
No matter how many people pray, no matter how often they pray, no matter how sincere they are, no matter how much they believe, no matter how deserving the amputee, what we know is that prayers do not inspire God to regenerate amputated legs. This happens despite what Jesus promises us in Matthew 21:21, John 14:14, Mark 11:24, etc.
The bottom line is in the question what is your standard of proof? Would you accept an ad hoc logical fallacy as genuine proof of something? Do you simply accept anecdotes as proof? Stories and personal accounts? If this is your standard of proof, then you probably do not have a truly firm grasp of reality. You would find yourself in a constant state of delusion. You would find yourself constantly rationalizing your beliefs in the face of evidence to the contrary of those beliefs. Constantly seeking ways to discount or ignore that evidence. Arguing emotionally instead of rationally or scientifically.
Again, I stress the importance of science. And even more than that, simple logic and reason. There are ideas in this world that persist despite being completely unsubstantiated. In fact, they persist despite evidence proving the exact opposite of what these ideas claim. ESP, telekinesis, homeopathy, psychic powers, dowsing, ghosts, etc. All of these, and many more, have contradicting evidence that would, to a rational thinking person, completely disprove them all. Yet, the standard of proof for most people is very low.
In many cases, all it takes is someone to simply make the claim that they are psychic in order for people to believe and completely accept it. If the average person exercised even a modest amount of critical thinking concerning these claims, they would no longer proliferate in our society. Montel Williams wouldn’t make Sylvia Browne a permanent guest on his program each week. Wouldn’t it be awesome to see someone with a scientific education on a talk show once in a while?
I think that, for the most part, people accept things based on how it makes them feel. If an idea makes them feel good, then they “believe in it.” The thought of ghosts existing makes people feel good about there being an afterlife. The idea of God makes people feel good about having a purpose or goal in life. Critical thinking is simply tossed out the window.
Sincerity is another basis for proof for a lot of people. Does the person who’s telling the story seem honest? Sincere? Then it must be true.
I respond to this by asking how much more precious is life without God? To know that this is the only life we’ve got? Wouldn’t you want to make the best of it? Doesn’t it make you feel lucky to be alive? Scientifically speaking, the odds of you existing in this point and time (or at all, at any point in time) are astronomically small. And yet, here you are. What more hope, joy and inspiration do you need?
God cheapens the deal. According to basically any religion, this life doesn’t matter. In fact, the Bible tells us that this life is something we have to live through until we get to “Heaven.” We are taught, as Christians, to revile this life, our bodies of filth and sin. We are taught that we are worthless and have nothing to look forward to except death. Only then will we see “Heaven.” How wretched…
Anyone who’s ever gazed through a telescope can testify that they’ve seen “Heaven.” Even looking up at the night sky with the naked eye is awe inspiring. To know that the light you’re seeing from those distant stars is thousands, if not millions, of years old is enough to fill one with awe and wonder. To realize how small of a piece of space we occupy. It is more humbling than any Bible verse telling me that God created me out of sand, or a blood clot, or any other nonsense.
I didn’t really want to get too deep into this just because I’d never stop writing. The basic point I wanted to make was that we need to up our standard of proof. We need to exercise critical thinking. To stop thinking of science as a bad thing, or that it’s just another way out of a myriad of ways you can “prove” something (it’s the only way). Or, thinking that it’s too hard to look for evidence of something. To think that it’s easier instead to just accept it.
I’ve come to revile the word “Faith.” When someone says, “Just have faith,” all I hear is, “Stop thinking about it and just accept it, regardless of the evidence to the contrary. You won’t get anywhere in this life by thinking. You need to just believe everything you’re told… especially if it’s in the Bible. Just believe any kind of woo-woo nonsense people throw at you.”
I usually end with the standard “Read a book,” but this time I’d just like to close with a quote from one of the greatest teachers of all time, the late Dr. Carl Sagan…
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”
Yesterday we celebrated the Resurrection of Jesus in the normal way… with candy. Joanna and I, being Atheists, just enjoy spending time around the family. I think we know better than to bring up religion on days like that. You’re just looking for trouble.
Anyway, I didn’t really bring this up to talk about religion (solely). Yesterday ended up being a horrible day. It started out good. We went to Joanna’s aunt’s house. Hung out with the family. Had an Easter brunch. Enjoyed the whole “family merriment” thing.
Joanna, being the photographer, had started taking pictures of everyone. Her sister was sleeping in one of the chairs by the fireplace, and she thought it’d be a good picture to get of her. Now, I didn’t actually see the event happen, but apparently Joanna was standing on the hearth, the little elevated plane in front of the fireplace, and somehow she slipped and fell on her ankle.
At first, it didn’t seem that bad. I didn’t even hear her fall. I just looked over and saw her on the floor saying that she hurt her ankle. But it wasn’t long until we found out just how bad she really did hurt it. I’d never seen swelling that bad before. Literally the size of a baseball.
So her parents took her to the hospital and I stayed back with the girls. And from what the doctor said, she apparently didn’t break her ankle. 3rd degree ligament damage.
As we speak, she’s at a foot specialist. They’re determining whether or not she’s going to need surgery. I still can’t believe it. She didn’t even fall that far. Not even a foot. I guess it’s just in how you land. This wasn’t the good way.
Now, as if that wasn’t bad enough, there’s more. I took Tessa and Torri back to Joanna’s parent’s house and waited for them to get back from the hospital. Now, you know how kids are, especially when wired on chocolate. Running is definitely part of the repertoire of hyper children.
So yeah, the kids were basically running wild around the house, ignoring my warnings that they needed to stop or someone was going to get hurt. Aside from falling, I failed to mention the whole thing about running with food in your mouth, and how that can lead to choking… and, of course, it did. Tessa runs in from the kitchen, gagging and holding her throat. Jesus friggin’ Christ (a good name to swear with). Had we not enough excitement for one day?
So now I’m giving my child the Heimlich Maneuver while her mother is in the hospital with 3rd degree ligament damage to her ankle. I’d had more than enough danger and peril for one afternoon.
As a side note, to put a skeptical angle on things, there’s an interesting point I’d like to make about the events of yesterday. If there are any religious or superstitious people reading this, I can already determine, with some accuracy, their thoughts on the events that took place yesterday.
If I’d only not been an Atheist, if I’d only had faith in God, these things would not have happened. This is, somehow, God trying to teach my family a lesson. God is punishing me for not believing in Him. I’d like to point out the nonsense in that argument.
First of all, there are completely logical explanations for the aforementioned events. As far as the situation with Joanna and her ankle, she simply lost her balance and fell on her ankle. Jesus didn’t “knock her down” or anything like that. She was on a slick surface with slick socks on (she doesn’t usually wear socks). Concerning Tessa and her choking incident, well, I think we all know why that happened. Running with food in your mouth is bad. You will choke.
I only bring up this point for the simple fact that I’m sure I’ll get comments related to this line of argument. I’m sure that there is even a testable experiment that could be done to prove the validity of this. We could do a study to find out of Atheists trip or fall down more often than Christians or other religious folk. Something tells me that there would not be a statistically significant difference between the groups. I think Jesus pushes people down in equal numbers, among all religious (non-religious) groups. Chuck Norris, on the other hand, only does roundhouse kicks to bad guys.
As another side note, I’d also like to posit an hypothesis regarding Jesus and the Resurrection. I don’t really think that He came back to life and floated up into the air, into the clouds and up into Heaven. I think what people really saw was someone who looked like Jesus, and this guy happened to be doing the “Soulja Boy” dance. Down through the years, the story changed, and morphed into Jesus flying up into the clouds. I think some guy was just “crankin’ that Roosevelt,” or even more likely, he “cranked that Robocop.”
Ah yes. My site seems to get quite a bit of attention these days from the “True Believer” crowd.
This one, like the last one, argues greatly from ignorance. There was also a great amount of undue credit given to the TAPS gentlemen, the Ghost Hunters. The reference given was to a show where their sound-man was supposedly attacked by a ghost. I address these things in my response, but for now, let’s just get to the email.
I recently read your writings concerning the above. Needless to say, it did not surprise me that there are people who doubt in their existence (ghosts, that is) and deny anything paranormal is a possibility.
At any rate, my main dispute is in regards to what was said about the Ghost Hunters on TV which (part of your statement) was that “They have an agenda. To prove that ghosts do, in fact, exist.” Apparently, you have never watched the show Ghost Hunters on Sci-Fi. The reason I say you’ve never watched the show is because if you did you would know that on every single show the founders (Jason Hawes and Grant Wilson) make it very clear they are out to debunk their findings. As a matter of fact, they have walked away from several investigations with the conclusion of a place not being haunted or having paranormal activity. (However, as it has been stated several times by paranormal investigators, apparitions don’t manifest on queue). If you’re still in doubt, I dare to to disprove the episode of Ghost Hunters when the TAPS sound-man gets attacked and is knocked to the floor. This was at New Bedford Armory in Massachusetts. When the findings were revealed to those individuals who had requested TAPS to do the investigating were astonished, and the clients were also on the premises when it all happened. Keep in mind that the clients who asked TAPS to come was not a family just hearing or seeing things. These people at New Bedford Armory were actual soldiers. These men are trained to not be afraid of things and to have tactful thinking. After what happened that night, they don’t doubt any longer in the paranormal. So, for you to say that Ghost Hunters, i.e. TAPS, are out to prove ghosts exist is completely inaccurate and an untrue statement. Although, I will say that there are those people (such as Lorraine Warren) and paranormal researchers/groups (such as the Most Haunted group) do give ghost hunting a bad name. I will agree that the Most Haunted group is a disgrace and embarrassment to legitimate investigators.
I have witnessed things I cannot explain as well. I saw my great aunt’s apparition about a week after she passed away. My boyfriend at that time was standing right next to me and witnessed it as well. I know what I saw and I didn’t see her out of the corner of my eye nor was anything placed in my mind to “imagine” what I saw. My head was fully turned and my eyes were locked onto the figure. It was something I will never forget, nor have ever doubted. I wasn’t afraid … just a bit startled but also felt honored that she made herself known to me.
I suppose you’re someone who believes in angels and demons but not in ghosts. How can you believe in one thing but not the other? Yes, most spirits are benevolent apparitions. Others, well, aren’t so nice. Are some sightings just manifestations of one’s own imagination? Possibly. There are many other sitings, etc., though, that cannot be explained. This does not mean ghosts do not exist. It wouldn’t surprise me none-the-least if your next writing is about how Wiccans are Satanists and worship the devil.
I suggest you read a book and do some research about how ghosts can and do exist. The thing is, though, you’re going to believe what you want just as I’m going to believe — and I know ghosts exist. It’s just like believing in God — either you believe or you don’t.
Over and over and over again, I repeat myself. I suppose it doesn’t do much good. I have NEVER said that science “does not allow for paranormal activity.” Whenever I have brought up paranormal activity scientifically, I have always said that science requires evidence!!! If there is no evidence, then of course, science will not accept it.
The thing that really floored me was the last paragraph. Apparently I need to do a little more research because I don’t read books which, as she says, show that, “ghosts can and do exist.” I don’t read much Sci-Fi. I guess, according to her, I probably should start. There aren’t any peer-reviewed books which claim that ghosts exist.
In case you’re interested, here’s that stupid video of the “Ghost Hunters” episode referenced where that sound man is supposedly attacked. Like I said, no evidence that a ghost was present at all, whatsoever.
So here’s my response to her.
Hello and thanks for writing,
I understand that you take issue with some of the things that I’ve written. I’ve also noted that you, as well as many others, misinterpret what I’ve said about ghosts. I’ve always said that I will accept the possibility of the existence of ghosts provided that there is sufficient evidence. By that, I mean reasonable scientific evidence.
What is reasonable scientific evidence? Well, to start off with, an extraordinary claim such as the existence of ghosts requires extraordinary evidence. I will not believe anything that I see on television… at least nothing I see on that Ghost Hunters show. These guys are daytime Roto-Rooter dudes. They have absolutely NO scientific training whatsoever. They have no clue as to how to operate scientifically. Their sole agenda is to try to prove that ghosts exist.
Let’s put it this way. If their goal wasn’t to prove that ghosts exist, why is their show called “Ghost Hunters?” Why not call their show “Anomaly Explainers?” Why? Because they want people to believe they really are catching ghosts on camera… and they’re not.
Just to give you an example of how completely unscientific these guys are, here’s a video from their show…
This is a video of a chair supposedly “moving by itself.” Apparently they didn’t do a whole lot of “debunking” because if, before the chair moves, you put your mouse pointer on the edge of the chair, you’ll find that the chair doesn’t actually move at all. The only thing that changes is where that light is pointing. You can see that someone is clearly messing with it. Does that look like they are trying to “debunk” anything? I’ve never even been on a “ghost hunt” before and I can see this is total garbage.
What these guys do, as do any tricksters and hucksters, is to they take very small details of the story and claim that it’s evidence against there being a haunting. Then, donning this scientific facade, they proceed with the rest of the show where they marvel and awe over things which have purely natural and scientific explanations. They perform what is called “Anomaly Hunting.” Anomaly hunting is where they search and search until they find something they “can’t explain.” And what that means is, they don’t even bother to try to explain it. They just say it’s a ghost.
I’ve seen the episode of Ghost Hunters that you mentioned in your email. There is absolutely nothing in the video that suggests there is a ghost present. You see a camera flailing around wildly for a second and then there is a guy laying on the floor. He says that something “went through him.” I hope you aren’t just going to take this guy’s word for it?
I’ll say what I’ve said countless times before. You wouldn’t take this kind of evidence from a pharmaceutical company, would you? “We’re not going to show you any proof that this medicine works, or even that it won’t kill you, but just take our word for it. We wouldn’t lie.”
What I ask of you is, if ghosts are so real and so obviously present in this world, why is the entire concept rejected by the whole of the academic scientific community? Why is it that you can’t go to Harvard and get a Ph.D. in “Paranormal Research?” Why is it that any educational program designed to research paranormal activity ends up shut down and out of funding? I’ll tell you why. It’s because it’s all nonsense. No respectable scientists is going to waste their time going on “Ghost Hunts.” It’s all fake.
Exhibit B – Wow, a whole TWO places in the USA to get a “Paranormal Degree.” *As a side note, not included in this email, every college in America offers some sort of Science program, as opposed to these TWO places that offer “Paranormal Degrees.”
As far as you witnessing things you cannot explain (as you say, “I have witnessed things I cannot explain as well.”), that’s all it is. Something you cannot explain. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a ghost. Can you explain Multi-Dimensional Derivative Calculus? No? That must mean it’s a ghost. Can you explain what a Higgs Boson particle is? No? It must be a ghost then. Are quantum computers ghosts because you can’t explain them?
As far as attacking me by saying that I probably believe in “angels and demons but not ghosts,” I place them all on the same level. Ancient mythologies. From this argument, you proceed with, “How can you believe in one thing but not the other?” You’ve not even been made aware of my opinion on such beings… or at least not spent enough time reading about my opinion.
And again you say, “There are many other sitings, etc., though, that cannot be explained. This does not mean ghosts do not exist.” It also does not mean ghosts DO exist. Again, just because something is unexplained, doesn’t mean that it’s automatically paranormal. Can you explain what the Bernoulli Effect is? No? That must mean it’s a paranormal phenomenon.
Concerning your statement that, “It wouldn’t surprise me none-the-least if your next writing is about how Wiccans are Satanists and worship the devil,” I feel that there is no difference between ghosts, spirits, devils or what have you. It is all nonsense. There’s no scientific evidence for any of the above… nor magic spells. Might as well be worshiping woodchucks. They are real.
As far as your recommendation for me to read a book, what would you recommend? I have requirements for my reading. It must be peer-reviewed… meaning that many scientists have read it prior to being published – insuring that it has been vetted of all ridiculous, unscientific material. If you can find even ONE peer-reviewed scientific book which claims that ghosts are real, I’d be more than happy to read it with an open mind.
I will just conclude with a response to your last few statements. “The thing is, though, you’re going to believe what you want just as I’m going to believe — and I know ghosts exist.” You are incorrect in your assumption. I’m not just going to “believe what I want.” I’m going to accept whatever the evidence points to. If there is a consensus among the scientific community that ghosts do, in fact, exist, then guess what? I will “believe in ghosts.”
“It’s just like believing in God — either you believe or you don’t.” I don’t suppose it is much like this. I accept where the evidence points. You, on the other hand, will believe in ghosts no matter what.
Why wouldn’t I want ghosts to exist? That would be amazing! Strange beings floating around, defying every law of physics known to mankind. That would be awesome. It’s just too bad that it isn’t real. I can’t make myself believe in something that there is absolutely no evidence for. I would be lying to myself.
Another person fallen victim to the false logic of these “Ghost Hunter” shows. As long as there is a small amount of token skepticism, everything else is taken as truth. “See, everything they say is the truth because they were skeptical about one thing.” Nonsense. Just look at that stupid video with the chair that “moves.”
Then there was the whole attack, talking about how I probably believe in “angels and demons but not ghosts,” and how she says, “It wouldn’t surprise me none-the-least if your next writing is about how Wiccans are Satanists and worship the devil.” What kind of logic is this? More like an ad hominem attack.
I think I did a good job of covering everything. Anyway, she writes back…
Your points and opinions have been taken into consideration. However, until the day that you actually experience what I have (since my childhood), then and only then will you change your mind about the existence of ghosts and that paranormal activity does occur in this world, irregardless if it can be “scientifically” proven or not. Although, you probably will never have an experience because when people are closed-minded and choose to ignore/discount the possibilities, it usually takes a major upset in one’s life to open that door after reaching a certain age. It’s a proven fact that adults are more quick to dismiss things than children are. As for the scientific stance (and those I’ve spoken with who have majored in that field) on paranormal research have explained to me the reason why most scientists don’t believe in ghosts or paranormal activity is because of the inability to scientifically explain it. They also went on to say not all scientists don’t discount the possibility of unexplainable occurrences, i.e. the existence of ghosts or other paranormal activities. Some times things just aren’t meant to be explained. They just are …. what they are.
Another person stuck in the mindset that somehow there are other ways to know things; other ways than through science. Science, as I’ve also said many times before, the only way we can know anything. But, I’ll address this in my final (so far) email response.
Hello again,
I guess the most important part of what I’d been trying to relate to you, the part that you’ve seemed to miss, is that I don’t totally discount the possibility of paranormal phenomenon. If there is evidence for it, then I’m more than happy to accept it.
For you to say that I’ll never experience anything paranormal because I’m “closed minded” is basically saying that ghosts only exist if you “let them.” That somehow the existence of ghosts is subjective – dependent upon whether or not you believe in them. If ghosts were real, I would see them whether I wanted to or not. It’s not like I can prevent them from existing just by not believing in them. You couldn’t say computers aren’t real just because I don’t “believe in them.” They’re still real, regardless of how “closed minded” I might be. Thankfully, facts don’t require someone to believe in them in order for them to be true. If the existence of ghosts was a fact, I would not be able to deny it just because I didn’t want them to be real.
“It’s a proven fact that adults are more quick to dismiss things than children are.” Children also accept things and believe them because they are also very “fantasy prone.” Their reality testing abilities aren’t up to standard as compared with adults. Children are not as rigorous about proof as adults are. They accept things they are told without proof, believing things told to them by authority figures. It’s part of our evolutionary history. If children didn’t listen when told not to go near the lion’s den, they’d be killed. Only when they get older do they engage in reality testing. This seems like you’re cherry-picking your evidence. Children believe in a lot of things. Things that adults know better than to believe in (Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, etc). Do you really want to base your proof of ghosts on the opinion of children?
You also say “scientifically” as if it’s no different from any other way of proving something. That there are other ways of proving things? Science is the only way we, as human beings, can know anything. Science isn’t a religion or a dogma… it’s a methodology. It’s the only way we can find things out. Anything outside the realm of science is, basically, outside the realm of human experience. It would be foolish to think that our mere human senses are capable of perceiving phenomenon that our advanced technological devices can’t. If something interacts with our senses, then it is obviously “scientifically” detectable. It logically follows that if scientific instrumentation cannot detect these ghosts, then how much less would our mere senses be able to detect them.
As far as your last comment, that “Sometimes things just aren’t meant to be explained,” I very much disagree. That is a very big leap to make. To make an assumption that things not “meant to be explained?” Besides being human nature to seek out the explanation for everything in the world around us, it would seem that to say some things are not meant to be explained is almost an effort to keep the real explanation of things hidden. Possibly that you might not like the results of knowing the real explanations for certain things?
To conclude, I’d just like to reiterate the fact that I do not say that paranormal phenomenon is impossible. If there arises some type of evidence for it, then, as I said before, I’d be more than happy to change my stance. Until that time, I concede to the current state of the evidence, which is no evidence.
And so, thus concludes (so far) another conversation with a True Believer. A lot of what I deal with are logical problems. There are countless examples here, as well as in my previous conversation.
So, if you’ve got some logical fallacies you want to throw my way, or if you’ve got some convoluted reasoning that I haven’t yet considered, godkillzyou@gmail.com is the address to send them to!
You can email me at godkillzyou@gmail.com. I'd love to hear what you have to say about my blog. I mean, you can email me along with leaving comments. I'd actually appreciate that even more.
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